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Post by rayray on Mar 28, 2016 18:13:32 GMT -6
Yes, you can tell, but when an eighteen year old leaves their home, parents, and church, and have to be an adult, they are going to have problems, they might get lost. Unless they are blatantly sinning and such, I do not think that you can say they arent christians.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2016 18:20:28 GMT -6
Jesus said that if we love Him we Will obey Him, if someone goes off and turned their back to not only the Church but also to God. Then they where never Saved, because if they where they would have never done that. Now I am not saying that someone Will never sin, or fall. We all do. But what I am saying is that if they turn away from God (in a big way or small) then that shows that they never where truly saved. Does that have something to do with Youth Groups? yea, but our salvation is not in the hands of pastors, youth group leaders. No it's in our hand. If we chose to love sin more then the Lord who died for us, then nothing a pastor can do or say will change that.
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Post by rayray on Mar 28, 2016 18:23:44 GMT -6
I would categorize sinning as turning your back on God, for a period. So if I sin, that means I'm not saved?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2016 18:36:10 GMT -6
I would say that sinning is saying at the time "Lord I want my way not Yours" and as I said we all fall, we all sin. But their is a difference in momently sinning then turning your back to the Lord and His church.
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Post by rayray on Mar 28, 2016 18:39:02 GMT -6
What is the difference? One is momentarily, one is extended for a bit.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2016 18:41:59 GMT -6
one is actively sinning, the other is monetarily. An active sinner hates God and Loves sin. I monetary sin is a moment of weakness in our own flesh, Even Paul said I do the things I don't want to do, but the things I do want to do I don't. Woe is me! who will save me from this body of Flesh?"
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Post by rayray on Mar 28, 2016 18:44:38 GMT -6
So you're saying that one sin is worse than the other? If you repent in the end, what's the difference?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2016 18:49:18 GMT -6
well with some sins yes, there is varying degrees of sin and punishment. Well if you repent at the end of your life, though you may enter heaven, your life would have not glorified the Lord in anything.
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Post by rayray on Mar 28, 2016 18:51:32 GMT -6
I'm sorry, but I have to strongly disagree. No sin is greater than the other. Where in the bible does it say one sin is greater than the other? In James 2: 10-11 it says For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
So even if you commit one crime, you have committed them all. When you say, "One sin is greater than the other, you are automatically saying that when God judges you, he will say, "Since you only stole instead of murdering someone, I'll rank you above the murderer. There is one unforgivable crime, and that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Matthew 12: 31-32 says "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." So that sin is worse than the others, but only that one. In 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 it says "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." So he ranked being greedy up there with murders and homosexuals, how can you say that one sin is greater than the other?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2016 9:18:55 GMT -6
Okay, well thank you for not disagreeing pacifistly. John 19:10-11 Jesus said this "The Soldiers Mock Jesus …10So Pilate said to Him, "You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?" 11Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin." Those are great verses, James is saying that if you brake one law it's LIKE you broke them all. Not that you broke them all. For different crimes there are different punishments. You have read Leviticus? Numbers? Deuteronomy? they are books of the Law, and they have different punishments for braking different laws. We are also created in the image of God, so though we are a very broken people we can see just a little of what God is like through us. We all know that liying is a sin, but that Murder is a bigger sin. Thought all who sin will be punished the level of punishment is based off their sins. Why do you think Jesus said that if anyone hurts His little ones it would have been better if that person was never born? We know Hitlar and mother Teresa are both going to hell, But Hitlars punishment will be more suver then mother Teresa
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Post by rayray on Mar 29, 2016 9:26:58 GMT -6
First of all, the verses say that it is like you broke them all because in heaven it doesn't matter. You will be judged. And Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy are in the old testament, those were meant for the Jews, not us. Um, again, where in the bible do you see that it says one sin is greater than the other or that people who did worse things will be punished. If someone has never commited a "bad" sin, such as murder, but they do not believe, they are going to hell and will be punished just the same as Hitler. No matter the sin, the judgement will be the same. And please, share with me the scripture behind your reasoning. If you can show me a verse that says "One sin is greater than the other", then please do. And when I say this, I mean again that the one unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2016 9:47:33 GMT -6
I just did. John 19:10-11. Pilate sinned but the sin of those who sent Jesus to Pilate was greater, if you want another one look up Hebrews 10:29. The president of my college (John MacArthur) was asked the same question and this is how he responded to it as following
"Well the only indication biblically that there are degrees of sin is the statement, that I can think of off the top of my head, Hebrews 10, down there in 26 and following. It says, "Of how much sorer punishment shall he be thought worthy has trodden under foot the Son of God and counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing." Of how much greater punishment shall he be thought worthy indicates that there are degrees of punishment? If there are degrees of punishment there must be degrees of sin. At least there's a difference between sins of deed and sins of faith toward God or toward Christ. Those are the severer sins so that the sins of the apostate or the heretic are the severer ones.
Now when you're coming down to whether it's worse to steal, lie or whatever it's very difficult biblically to see any distinction in those. "
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Post by rayray on Mar 29, 2016 9:51:13 GMT -6
Yes, and I'll tell you why. Pilate believed that Jesus was lord, but those who gave him up did not believe in the Holy Spirit, so they committed the unforgivable sin. And again, Hebrews 10 is talking about unbelief in the Holy Spirit, the blood of the covenant an unholy thing. Why is it difficult to understand?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2016 9:58:18 GMT -6
The unforgiveable sin is Apostasy. And this is what Apostasy means "an apostate is someone who knowing fully the gospel turns against it in complete rejection." That is the unforgivable sin beucase it is a blasphem against the Holy Spirits work
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Post by rayray on Mar 29, 2016 10:06:16 GMT -6
Yes, that's what I said. Someone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit by denying them. But how is it hard to understand which sin is the worst? I have posted a few verses that have said that none is worse, God puts greediness up there with adulterers.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2016 10:15:03 GMT -6
It's not hard. Yes Apostasy is the worst but every sin has a certain amount of punishment. Let me ask you, lets say you where a judge. And one day there came a thief convicted to stealing money from a bank when no one was there, and there came also a murder convicted to brutally murdering random people. Mind you that they are both going to pension, Now would you the Judge punish them the same or would to give them punishments according to the crime?
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Post by rayray on Mar 29, 2016 10:18:59 GMT -6
You cannot compare God to an earthly judge! Did an earthly judge die for the convict so that he could go free?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2016 10:36:21 GMT -6
I am not comparing God to anything. I am using an analogy, we use this all the time when witnessing
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Post by rayray on Mar 29, 2016 10:41:25 GMT -6
What I meant was you cannot use an earthly judge as an example of Jesus, especially in an analogy.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2016 10:43:57 GMT -6
why not? Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron use it all the time. Are they wrong?
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Post by rayray on Mar 29, 2016 10:48:50 GMT -6
Would you show me the video/article where they did? And what I was saying is that I can not answer that because if I become a judge, I will not die so that my convicts can go free.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2016 11:03:36 GMT -6
Here is a shot one with only Ray Comfort (because the ones with Kirk Camron are like 30 mins long)
and here is something he put together
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Post by rayray on Mar 29, 2016 11:10:06 GMT -6
I think that's a bit different, one is weather you are going to jail or not, one is what your sentence is.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2016 11:15:45 GMT -6
naa it's the same kind of analogy because I am asking if you where a judge, who you give the same punishment to the thief and murderer? see they are both going to be punished, but to what degree. (just work with me. There is a reason to this question)
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Post by rayray on Mar 29, 2016 11:18:04 GMT -6
It doesn't work like that though. The scripture says that if you break one, it is as if you broke them all, they all have the same punishment if you do not repent and believe: Hell.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2016 12:37:06 GMT -6
juts humor me for a minute, if you where a judge would you gave them the same punishment
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Post by rayray on Mar 29, 2016 12:41:44 GMT -6
No, I would not.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2016 13:02:13 GMT -6
Okay. Now our bases of justice and mortally come from God, is it not fare to also say that there is different levels of punishment for different sins? and Yes I am away of what James 2: 10-11 says. Which is there so that we understand sin is sin, because we as humans tend to make light of sin, and go "it was just a little lie, nothing to bad about that". Now I am not saying sin will go unpunished, for it is clear that all sin will be punished (whiter in hell or on Jesus) But the severity of the punishment will be determined by the sinner sin. Once someone sins they have just opened a "sin now and pay later" if you will. So you can sin all you want, but when the time comes to pay for your sins some will have a bigger bill to pay then others. So lets say there was this man who lived on an island in the middle of the sea with his village, he wasn't a bad guy but he never accepted Jesus Christ. Will that man and Hitler be given the same amount of punishment? no, for though they both died in sin Hitler has more to pay for then the island man. Well that's my view on that, I am not saying it's the right view, or the wrong view, it's just my view
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Post by rayray on Mar 29, 2016 16:13:33 GMT -6
What do you think hell is? Like, do you think that if you lie, you get a year in hell or a certain amount of pain, but if you murder you get longer?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2016 16:43:54 GMT -6
Well hell is eternal conscious torment, Once in hell there is no getting out. Well I don't clam to know the specifics of hell or what happens in there (as I don't plan on visiting it). But I think the amount of punishment is determined by the sin you committed while alive
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