|
Post by rayray on Mar 29, 2016 16:46:29 GMT -6
So if it's eternal, amount of what? I'm not understanding. When a murderer goes to hell, he's there forever, same with a thief, how is one punishment greater?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Location:
Joined: January 1970
Age:
Gender:
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2016 18:15:57 GMT -6
You know how when you cut yourself you feel pain? now compare that to a gunshot. Both are painful but different levels of pain.
|
|
|
Post by rayray on Mar 29, 2016 18:24:21 GMT -6
Where in scripture do you read that there are different levels of punishment? and please provide at least three verses, as I did.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Location:
Joined: January 1970
Age:
Gender:
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2016 19:56:41 GMT -6
As I said John 19:10-11 Hebrews 16:10 and Matthew 12: 31-32 (thought this verse says about the unforgivable sin, which is a different level of punishment because it can't be forgiven) and again this is juts my view and I am not trying to force it on anyone. Anyways people in hell stay in hell
|
|
|
Post by rayray on Mar 30, 2016 4:56:34 GMT -6
((There is no Hebrews 16)) You haven't really answered my question though, none of those verses had anything to do with levels of punishment in hell.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Location:
Joined: January 1970
Age:
Gender:
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2016 9:09:07 GMT -6
Sorry I meant Hebrews 10:29, Matthew 11:22-24, Matthew 12: 31-32, John 19:10-11.
|
|
|
Post by rayray on Mar 30, 2016 10:55:47 GMT -6
Here are my thoughts on each verse. Hebrews 10: 29 is still talking about the one unforgivable sin, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Matthew 11: 22-24 isn't even talking about people, it's about cities. Matthew 12: 31-32 is again, about the one unforgivable sin. John 19: 10-11 is about the unforgivable sin.
These are allllll about the unforgivable sin, except for Matthew 11: 22-24, which is about cities. None of these verses say anything about some people being punished over others except when they have committed the unforgivable sin. The verses I am looking for say specifically that some people who have committed a sin other than blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be punished over others.
|
|
|
Post by rayray on Mar 30, 2016 11:17:36 GMT -6
Um, drag racing is illegal, and the bible says to obey your countries laws unless they are against his laws. Abortion and suicide is murder, and it says not to murder. That was what the verses said, not what I think! I didn't mean that that was what I thought about them, I meant that this is what I researched and found out about them. And yes it does, saying the blood of the covenant is unclean is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the unforgivable sin. The cities meaning the people, but sometimes the bible talks about cities as people, calling them names of people.
I think that we should end this discussion, it's going nowhere but in circles and cannot accomplish anything.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Location:
Joined: January 1970
Age:
Gender:
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2016 11:20:30 GMT -6
Well if your looking for one like that then you won't find one. Just like you won't find one that says drag racing is a sin, or that kicking a dog is sin, or that abortion is sin, or that cloning is a sin, or that genetic manipulation is sin. If you look for a verse that says specifically that suicide is sinful then you won't find one. If you look for a verse that says specifically that rebellion against a tyrant is okay your not going to find one. And don't take this the wrong way but it doesn't really matter what you 'think' the verse says, What matters is What the verse says.
Hebrews 10: 28-29 says "28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" could this be talking about the unforgivable sin? But it doesn't say that it is or that it isn't also talking about other sins.
Matthew 11:22-24 says "22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.” Anything in the Bible in a city is mentioned it is really talking about the people who lived in it. Because citys do not have souls and cannot sin. When Sodom mentioned it is talking about the people who lived in the city, not the city it's self.
Matthew 12:31-32 says "31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." if every sin is forgivable but this one then that still proves a different level of punishment, because the other sins could have been forgiven but this one is unforgivable.
John 19:10-11 says 10 “Do you refuse to speak to me?” Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?”11 Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.” Right here Pilate sin is not only his great pride but also that he will allow the crucifying of Jesus. But the ones whos sin is greater are the ones who broth Jesus to Pilate. And even if it is asking about the unforgivable sin this show that how one sin is Greater then the other.
now I don't know why to keep perusing this conversation. You seem like your not really interested in hearing me (because I have stated more then once that these are my own views and I am not trying to push them on anyone, and that could be right or I could be wrong but it doesn't really matter because once someone is in hell there is on getting out. they will be there forever in torment that is never quenched)
|
|
|
Post by rayray on Mar 30, 2016 11:24:29 GMT -6
I'm interested, but it's not going anywhere. It's very interesting, and I wanted to end it, but now that you said the last paragraph, if it's eternal, how can there be levels? And Matthew 12:31-32, it doesn't prove different levels, what it's saying is that if you commit this sin, you are not saved and will not be forgiven and will go to hell, whereas if you steal or murder, you can repent of that sin and God will forgive it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Location:
Joined: January 1970
Age:
Gender:
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2016 11:35:01 GMT -6
so therefore it is a sin with a different level of punishment. Because if all sins are equal but this one that means that there I one sin with a different punishment, and that punishment is that you can never receive salvation. where if you commented the other sins you still have a chance to be saved. And regarding drag racing, there is no verse that specifically says "do not drag race". See though the Bible may not say specifically about a subject, like cloning, it provides us with a enough information to know that cloning is wrong because it degrades life and is unnatural. And as I said I don't know how it could differ, maybe someone feels more torment and punishment then the guy who died with just the sin of lying.
|
|
|
Post by rayray on Mar 30, 2016 11:42:17 GMT -6
We were talking about levels of punishment after God judges you, while you're in hell. And yes, no verse says, "Do not drag race", but since it says to obey the law, if you drag race, you are sinning. Same with cloning, God created life, and messing with it is almost saying, "You messed up, God." Lastly, and finally, there is absolutely no verse that even alludes to difference levels of torment is Hell. Thank you for having this discussion, it was very interesting and caused me to study the scripture.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Location:
Joined: January 1970
Age:
Gender:
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2016 11:48:41 GMT -6
then what do you do with Matthew 11:22-24? does God judge one soulless city harsher then a different soulless city? why would God even judge a city? the city is an inanimate object that cannot be sinful or none sinful. Does it not make scenes that God would judge the people in the city?
|
|
|
Post by rayray on Mar 30, 2016 11:49:58 GMT -6
Do you know what they did? It sounds as if they committed the unforgivable sin. That is one verse, you need at least three that all say the same thing or prove the same thing in order to understand something.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Location:
Joined: January 1970
Age:
Gender:
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2016 11:52:32 GMT -6
why would I need three?
|
|
|
Post by rayray on Mar 30, 2016 11:53:34 GMT -6
Because it's super easy to misunderstand a verse, and if you base a whole section of your theology on one verse, then you could have it all wrong (I'm not saying you do, but that's why I have multiple verses)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Location:
Joined: January 1970
Age:
Gender:
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2016 12:01:48 GMT -6
But then what about Matthew 12:31-32? it is the only place where it says that "blasphemy of Holy Spirit" is the only "unforgivable sin". sure there are different places where it alludes to it but it is never really mentioned like as the "unforgivable sin" in any place but Matthew. And what about the different accounts of the gospels? there are some parts that are only found in one gospel so you can't have two other verse about it, so what do you do with that?
|
|
|
Post by rayray on Mar 30, 2016 12:05:11 GMT -6
There are several other verses, not that mention "BotHS" directly, but about people who did things counted as blasphemy. The different accounts in the gospels are mentioned in only one gospel, but those are more accounts of what happened, I've never read one that said something about a topic and there were no other verses that backed it up.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Location:
Joined: January 1970
Age:
Gender:
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2016 12:09:38 GMT -6
See they don't directly mention it, it is in indirect mention and your indirect mention could also be wrong because it is not directly or indirectly mentioned (now I am not saying your wrong, I am saying that you are making an assumption that it is indirectly mentioning it, when in reality it Could, not saying it is, be something else)
|
|
|
Post by rayray on Mar 30, 2016 12:10:40 GMT -6
It doesn't have to mention it directly, as long as it says the same thing. It's called cross referencing.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Location:
Joined: January 1970
Age:
Gender:
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2016 12:14:05 GMT -6
I know what it's called. But you said I needed three verses that DERECTLY/SPECIFICALLY mention someone, not indirectly. If it's in indirect refinance is okay, then what's wrong with the verses I used?
|
|
|
Post by rayray on Mar 30, 2016 12:17:27 GMT -6
They didn't support your theology, they were all talking about the ONE unforgivable sin, not any of the others. And I did not say directly or specifically say that, I said say the same thing.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Location:
Joined: January 1970
Age:
Gender:
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2016 12:26:06 GMT -6
Yes you did, you said and I quote "The verses I am looking for say specifically that some people who have committed a sin other than blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be punished over others." Okay lets assume they are talking about that sin. How do you know they are not indirectly saying that there is a difference in levels of punishment? Because Matthew 12:31-32 sure sounds like different levels of punishment, and Matthew 12:31-32 sounds like an indirect reference (because it is the ONLY unforgivable sin, which makes it a sin with a different level of punishment) and John 19:10-11 also sounds like an indirect reference
|
|
|
Post by rayray on Mar 30, 2016 12:30:32 GMT -6
Aiden I said that about a specific verse, not three verses about theology. I was just looking for one at the time. If you had provided one that even suggested that, than I would say, "You need three that BACK THAT UP, not directly mention it." When they says things in verses like they called the blood unholy, that's called blasphemy, so it's directly mentioning the unforgivable sin. I have told you what I believe and provided scripture for it, so I will not be posting in this discussion again.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Location:
Joined: January 1970
Age:
Gender:
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2016 12:39:19 GMT -6
no rayray you said that after I gave my list of verses (look towards the top of this page). And you where the one telling me remember. I wasn't telling you or trying to convince you, you where the one asking me and telling me
|
|
|
Post by rayray on Mar 30, 2016 12:41:34 GMT -6
Aiden I already said I wanted to end this discussion.
|
|
Aiden
Lieutenant
Location:
Joined: March 2016
Age:
Gender: Male
Posts: 409
|
Post by Aiden on Mar 30, 2016 12:51:47 GMT -6
okay. (sorry if I seemed pushy I didn't mean to)
|
|
|
Post by rayray on Mar 30, 2016 12:52:20 GMT -6
It's fine, I was just telling you why I didn't answer.
|
|
Aiden
Lieutenant
Location:
Joined: March 2016
Age:
Gender: Male
Posts: 409
|
Post by Aiden on Mar 30, 2016 12:54:25 GMT -6
okay so I got something else..... are we in control of animals, or are animals untamable ?
|
|
|
Post by rayray on Mar 30, 2016 12:55:03 GMT -6
What do you mean? Like, we train our dog and stuff, but we don't control her.
|
|